BotD vs Grief [Архив] - Форум Диабломании

Tim_ru

24.04.2010, 09:45

В PvP превосходство Griefa не оспоримо. Проверенно опытным путем и не однократно. По поводу PvM, могу судить только по барбу - одноручный Botd в берсеркер аксе рулит. Дамаг + лич + 2-х фреймовая скорость атаки + масса полезных модификаций со второго оружия. Да, площадь атаки снижается, тотальный дамаг принципиально не отличается при 2-х фреймах двумя топорами и 4-х фреймах полеармой, но бонусы со второго оружия решают. Dr и блок со щита (полностью снимающие опасность Dols), cb, ds, ow и другие. Благодаря этому, толпа мобов распиливается с помощью ww быстрее и эффективнее. Экспериментировал многократно с разными типами оружия. Как в сингле с помощью редактора, так и на батле путем вкладывания средств ради этих опытов.
Имхо - в PvM oдноручный Botd предпочтительней.

Iron_angel

24.04.2010, 10:04

кстати два БА дадут такой же радиус, как саммая длинная полеарма. Хз ну сколько не тестил на хельных бр цц-шника в перфекте - с грифом всегда было быстрее.
+500 дамага, к котомым потом прибавляются проценты по моему больше ботда.

WOLK

24.04.2010, 10:43

Ну как же меня бесят "спорщики", которых спрашиваешь об аргументах - а они отнекиваются, говорят "хз, почему это так", "наверное, всё иначе", "ну я не знаю" и так далее. Давайте уже расставим точки над "i" раз и навсегда. В первую очередь, пройдите по моей ссылке, лентяи:
http://www.diablomania.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=1221
Теперь подведём итог.
BotD в двуручном оружии сильнее, чем Grief - прежде всего потому, что он умножает, а не прибавляет урон к базе. А база у эфирных двуручников очень хорошая. С этим всё ясно.
Теперь перейдём к одноручному. На первый взгляд кажется, что Грифу всё равно, в какую болванку влезать - на самом деле, это не так. Только одна болванка действительно под него годится - это Phase Blade, быстрейшее оружие в игре. BotD же обычно собирают в Berserker Axe, из-за его хороших значений базового урона. Типичное заблуждение - полагать, что Гриф медленнее БотДа, т.к. на рунворде Grief стоит модификатор IAS 30-40%, на BotD - 60% IAS. Но недалёкие люди упускают из вида то, что скорость болванки БА равна [0], а скорость ПБ [-30]. То есть лоу Гриф 30%иас = Ботд 60% иас. А хай Гриф, с 40% иас, быстрее БотДа. Поэтому для всех вообще милишников в игре, использующих только одно оружие+щит, Гриф является самым лучшим оружием и не имеет альтернатив.
Для WW-барба всё немного иначе. Мастери мечей ему качать не с руки - Бистом уже не помашешь после этого. Поэтому вайрлвиндеры делают себе Grief в Berserker Axe. При dual-wielding, а именно - в каждой руке рунворду с 35%+ ИАСом, сделанных в Берсеркер Эйксах, достигается 2-фреймовый WW. Это Гриф+Бист или Гриф+Дум.
На что годится Grief в БА с менее, чем 35% IAS? На то, чтобы его выбросили на помойку. Не-варварам подходит только Гриф в Фэйз Блэйде, а для варвара такой слишком медленный.

Да, и наконец последнее - отображение урона, наносимого владельцем Грифа, багнуто. Вы понимаете? Багнуто только отображение, всё с Грифом в порядке. Его повреждения считаются абсолютно по той же формуле, что и повреждения БотДа. Но игра, когда выводит вам значение урона в окошке, обманывает вас. Там всё считается по принципу [базовый урон оружия] x [проценты с навыков и аур] + [~400 damage с Grief]. На самом деле прибавляют не в конце, а в начале. Средний урон с удара Грифа у зелота, например - восемь с половиной тысяч. С БотДа - семь ровно, к тому же БотД медленнее и дедли страйка на нём нет.

И ради Бога, Tim - не надо упоминать про лайфлич на БотДе. Это ты вайрлвиндер, и личишь сразу из всей толпы, поэтому хелльный штраф чувствуешь не очень сильно. А все до единого остальные мили-чары эти 12-15% могут смело выкинуть, потому что жизнь это им не спасет и от питья бутылок не отучит. Только Лайф тап котируется на Хелле, если вы не фури-друид и не вайрлвиндер.

Grief in one-handed weapon >>> BotD in one-handed weapon
Grief in two-handed weapon <<< BotD in two-handed weapon

Tim_ru

24.04.2010, 11:09

Я подхожу к рассмотрению оружия исключительно со стороны барба ww поэтому и оценка оружия у меня спецефичная и несколько односторонняя) По поводу бага на отображении орона в окне статов, я понял уже. Более того, проверил это и на практике. Да, действительно урон на много выше, нежели указывается в окне статистики у Griefa. Преимущества Botda, для меня уже не столь очевидно, но, например, барбом применять Grief в связке с Beast не вариант - лича будет не хватать (как манна лича так и лайф) 60% Ias с Botda, я не рассматриваю как великое достоинство. Варбу достаточно и 34% как ты сам указал. По этой же самой причине и Grief в берсеркер аксе предпочтительней чем в фазе блайде, тут ты тоже все верно отметил.
Если разобраться, то разногласий у нас по поводу этих оружий почти не осталось) Единственное, я попрежнему настаиваю на Botde в ба, а не в полеарме применительно к барбу. Есть свои минусы и плюсы у каждого варианта, но у двух одноручников плюсов больше.

Iron_angel

24.04.2010, 11:32

WOLK

24.04.2010, 11:42

Я специально гайд для тебя напишу - как пользоваться этим подробным калькулятором на английском и немецком языках, куда и что вписывать :ab:
Рад, что мы пришли почти к полному консенсусу.

кстати два БА дадут такой же радиус, как саммая длинная полеарма.
Не дадут. Радиус двух оружий не складывается. Более того - если варвар, к примеру, возьмёт в руки два двуручных меча - их радиус будет считаться, как у одноручных. То есть, он ещё и урежется почти в два раза. Раньше, когда параметры range были иными, многие барбы старались брать себе под ПвМ Колоссус Блейды вместо Берсеркер Эйксов, из-за того что дальность поражения была 5 единиц, а не 2. Я сам когда-то думал, что это обосновано. Но позже выяснил, что когда барб сжимает по одной штуке Колоссус блейдов в каждой руке - ренж у них мистическим образом снижается до 2, т.к. игра их воспринимает как одноручные после этого. Но теперь все эти разговоры не имеют смысла - параметр ренж поменяли для всего, чего только можно, и у Берсеркер Эйксов c Колоссус Блейдами теперь в любых кондициях одинаковый ренж - 2 единицы.
Что же касается полеарм, вернее, одной-единственной полеармы, то в ПвМ они рулят. Цитата с Арреата для сомневающися и настаивающих на особом отношении:
Long Weapons such as Spears, and Polearms make Whirlwind even more effective as it will hit monsters in a wider radius.
Из статьи про механику работы скилла Whirlwind:
http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/skills/barbarian-combatskills.shtml#whirlwind

Iron_angel

24.04.2010, 12:00

WOLK, можно ли ссылки по поводу радиуса... ? пока оперирую относительно старой информацией - 2ba радиус 4, 1ba радиус 3.
В версии 1.13 пробовал цц-шника - дамаг уходит заметно дальше, чем видна анимация удара, так же как и в ближайших версиях до этого.

WOLK

24.04.2010, 12:20

Насчёт анимации верно подмечено.
Ренжи изменились - максимальный теперь 4 единицы. У одноручных топоров, одноручных и двуручных мечей, одноручных и двуручных дубин - 2 единицы максимум. Среди двуручных топоров есть Глориус Эйкс с радиусом 3, всё остальное - 2.
Полеармы имеют различный радиус, от 1 до 4. Криптик Эйкс (и его уникальный вариант, Томбривер) имеют радиус 3. Только две полеармы обладают радиусом 4 - Great Poleaxe и Giant Thresher. Есть ещё 3 копья с таким же радиусом - War Pike, Ghost Spear, Mancatcher.

Tim_ru

24.04.2010, 14:13

в полеарме просто дешевле)

Мне было достаточно блуд крафтового колечка и то, что на шмоте (насколько помню только на ареат фэйсе и амулете было). Более того можно таскать морроволки и кастовать с них лайф тап. Вроде просто хватало с 2грифов и кольца (но учитывая чармы на дамаг)

Вариант с колечками и амулетами отбрасываю как не лучшую идею. Ставить лич вместо других полезных свойств, которые не снять с оружия - не самый удачный вариант. Тап барбу ww не нужен на хеле. Его востребованность возникает только в двух случаях - 1. Лилит, 2. убер Меф. В остальных случаях предпочтительней декра (в том числе и на убер баале с диа) Сапоги Горе ридер вне конкуренции. Ну разве что как вариант Гоблин той (зависит от выбранного типа экипировки и оружия) перчатки дракулс или стеелренд (то же зависит от экипировки) Арреатс в некоторых случаях выгоднее заменить на Гуиламус. Полная экипировка должна стремиться к цели - 2 фрейм скорость атаки, крашин блов не меньше 50%, деадли страйк можно подогнать к 100% вместе с навыком мастери, дающим 30% шанс подобного эффекта, ар не меньше 25К (иначе актовых боссов, особенно баала убивать придется очень долго) дефенс не принципиально, в пределах 20К для ПвМ хватит, лайф лич в пределах 15% и манна лич процентов 5 (желательно не с колец), Open wound - достаточно 25% (если не дракулсы, то значит нужно подобрать соответствующее оружие во вторую руку). Модификатор Can not be frozen не принципиален для барба ww. Скорость атаки не замедляется. Двигается медленнее, но за-то тумаков успевает раздать гораздо больше. Составлять окончательный вариант экипировки из отдельно взятых вещей, пусть даже очень дорогих и перфектных - ошибочный путь. Порой, например, выгоднее в ущерб дамагу добиться другого более полезного модификатора. Если соблюсти все выбранные значения или хотя бы к ним приблизиться, получится очень эффективный чар.
Для ПвП расклад приорететов несколько иной, но это тема другого разговора. Как нибудь, когда закончу свои эксперименты, обязательно коснусь барба пвпшника))

Wolk, пользовательская инструкция по использованию калькулятора расчета конечного дамага не помешает. Я самостоятельно не смог справиться). С расчетом скорости атаки все на много проще

Iron_angel

24.04.2010, 15:42

Принципиально если бегать сугубо на боссов. Без этого можно и просто почти любой хороший шмот.

WOLK

24.04.2010, 23:12

ар не меньше 25К (иначе актовых боссов, особенно баала убивать придется очень долго)
Вот это сильное преувеличение. Начиная с 9к атак рейтинга шанс удара по Баалу становится 95% :ab:
Но разумеется, chance to hit ещё и от уровня персонажа зависит.

Tim_ru

25.04.2010, 18:55

Вот это сильное преувеличение. Начиная с 9к атак рейтинга шанс удара по Баалу становится 95% :ab:
Но разумеется, chance to hit ещё и от уровня персонажа зависит.

Странно, мне чтобы достигнуть 95% шанса хита по баалу, приходится набирать до 55K АР При 53K, шанс нанесения хита баалу - 94%
Очередной баг отображкения? Проверял в сингле персонажем 99левела

WOLK

25.04.2010, 23:59

У моей сорки на баттле при 8800 АР шанс удара по Баалу - 95%. За что купил, за то и выдаю :ab: И это без конвы смайтера (впрочем, какая разница - игра всё равно не учитывает её эффект, когда пишет chance to hit в окошке).

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